Michael Hyatt: Hi, I’m Michael Hyatt, and this is Lead to Win, the weekly podcast to help you win at work and succeed at life. In this episode, we’re going to continue our conversation about productivity by the numbers, and we’re going to be talking to our friend Ian Cron about the Enneagram and productivity. Now, Larry, we talked about this last week. What was your takeaway? We covered some of those first numbers. What was your big takeaway as we talked with Ian?

Larry Wilson: My big takeaway was that everybody has a great superpower they bring to the workplace that impacts their ability to be productive, to get things done. Great skills to leverage, but everybody has sort of a shadow side to that, a corresponding weakness that can hamstring your productivity. For me, as the Enneagram One, that’s procrastination and perfectionism, which is this two-edged sword. That was my takeaway.

Michael: I think the beauty of it was that it gave us insight to make us more self-aware about what our natural Enneagram number gives us in terms of a natural advantage, but on the other hand, as you said, there’s sort of that shadow side or the challenge we have to face if we’re going to be productive. We weren’t too long into the conversation with Ian before we realized, “Hey, this is more than one episode. We have to do two episodes if we’re going to do justice to this.”

So if you have not listened to the first episode, you are definitely going to want to do that, because we covered the first four Enneagram numbers in that episode. If you’re an Enneagram type One, Two, Three, or Four, or even if you’re not, or if you manage people who are one of those, you want to go back and hear that episode, because this is a continuation of the first episode. So, welcome back, Ian. Let’s dive in.

Larry: Let’s move to type Five, which is the Investigator.

Ian Morgan Cron: These are amazing people. The superpower of the Five is observation. No one has the power of observation… And the analytical powers? Extraordinary. What Fives need to work on in terms of productivity is they can tend to use up all their energy in the research stage. Remember, these are information junkies. God forbid you allow a Five to go down the wormhole of the Internet for too long, because they’ll be in there just sucking up… I call them information Hoovers.

They just go down there, and they’re gathering information, oftentimes on subjects unrelated to what needs to actually happen. They’ll come back and say, “I just learned all…” Oh my gosh. They don’t want to get stuck in research. The other thing that can hurt productivity for a Five… They need to take care of their energy. Fives have fewer resources for relationships than other types. Here’s a problem I see with Fives. They tend to be people who withhold information. They’re people who give information on a need-to-know basis.

Now what does that do to a team? It slows it down, because the team needs more information from the leader to give them information that allows them to get work done. The team should not have to keep coming to the Five, saying, “Well, what are we doing about this? And what did you want on that?” The Five needs to be more generous with all the knowledge they have so the rest of the team can be productive.

Larry: If you work for a Five, you may be recognizing some of this.

Michael: And Larry does.

Larry: It’s not done in any malicious sense. They’re not hoarders of information as a way to exert power but because it just doesn’t seem necessary to them.

Michael: Do you think that’s because it doesn’t occur to them that other people don’t know this or they’re just so lost in the pursuit of information they don’t think to communicate it back? I know, and we’re talking about Joel, who is Larry’s boss and my son-in-law, so I can say this. Joel is the most widely read person I know. He knows stuff about everything. You can rarely bring up a topic he hasn’t read pretty deeply on. Some of the things he pursues and reads about, I’m just like, “Why?” Because I’m a pragmatist. I’m like, “Well, what’s the utility of that? How are you going to ever use that?” He doesn’t care. Knowledge has value for its own sake.

Larry: I’ll tell you a story about a Five I know.

Michael: A different Five? Or you don’t want to reveal that?

Larry: For the purpose of this conversation, yes. I have a friend who’s a Five, and we were sitting around chatting, and he was holding forth on some arcane bit of medieval something or maybe it was music and going very deep on early blues artists, or something like that, and his teenage child walked in and listened to the conversation for about a minute and said, “How long has he been like this?” You scratch the surface, and there is so much information, so much knowledge there that it’ll pour out.

Michael: That’s a place where I think maybe the behavior can be unproductive, because they’re doing research for research’s sake, and within the context of an organization, that’s not always productive. It’s not always useful. It can be sideways energy, fake work.

Ian: They can become easily distracted, frivolous at times in their information gathering, disconnected emotionally from others. Again, I think on a team, what I’m also alluding to here isn’t just productivity for them but how it affects other people and the productivity of a whole team. The Five has to learn to be disciplined and move out of research and get to work.

Michael: And Joel does that. He’s one of the most productive people I know in terms of creating content.

Ian: He delivers the goods. By the way, again, here’s a stereotype: that they’re walking around with pocket protectors with pens and an old Texas Instruments calculator on their belt. That’s a stereotype. I’m telling you, I’ve met incredible Five leaders who have gotten to a place in their life where they’re not over-relying on those gifts. They have become people who are more integrated, self-aware, and when they do that, the gift becomes a blessing versus an unnecessary blight.

Larry: My real envy of good, healthy Fives is the amazing decision-making capability, because they know so much, and as you put it, Ian, their analytical powers are off the chart, so they can quickly make a decision that I would have to think about for I don’t know how long.

Michael: The other thing that’s similar to that that I’ve noticed, particularly in Joel, because I’ve known him for 20 years now, worked with him for 20 years, is that he has an ability to be dispassionate about decisions that even involve him. He can be objective about his own role in a way that I struggle with, frankly. I saw him when we were both at Thomas Nelson together actually step into a lesser role than he had, because that’s what he perceived the team needed. He sort of analyzed the whole thing and said, “This is the thing that makes sense, and I’m willing to do it.” Boy, that really commanded the respect of everybody in the organization.

Ian: Absolutely.

Larry: That brings us to type Six, which we often call the Loyalist.

Ian: Yeah, man. We believe, by the way, interestingly, that there are more Sixes in the world than any other type and fewer Fours than any other type, which Fours love to hear, because they’re special and unique. Then the second type that we believe is dominant in the culture are Nines. So we have a lot of Sixes and a lot of Nines.

Michael: Thank God is all I can say.

Ian: Thank God is right. They’re amazing. As their name implies, Sixes are loyal. Now here’s where they get in trouble with productivity. It’s fairly straight ahead: analysis paralysis. Sixes tend to be self-doubting and self-questioning, and they have trouble making decisions, so they want to rely on authority figures or “experts.” They’ll just run around from expert to expert or authority to authority or colleague to colleague asking, “What do you think we should do about that? I’m not sure what I should do.”

Then, of course, worst-case scenario thinking comes in, which can fuel analysis paralysis. It’s like, “Well, what if this happens, and what if that happens, and what if this happens?” We oftentimes say that Sixes have a cocktail party in their head, full of people who are offering opinions, and then they get lost in all of these opinions, and they’re like, “Oh boy!” so they get stuck on a fence. I oftentimes say they suffer from “pre-traumatic stress disorder.”

If you are always seeing disaster on the horizon, that means you’re always questioning people to see if they’re ready for it. Now what does that mean? Every time they are in a meeting and a plan comes up or a project comes up, they see all of the things that could go wrong, and they’re raising question after question, and that just slows everything down. So it’s hard for them to make decisions, which hurts productivity, and then, of course, it slows productivity of the team down if they are in analysis paralysis.

Larry: Michael, we have quite a few Sixes on our team. We don’t suffer from that.

Michael: Well, I think we’ve coached them some. One of the ways I’ve coached Sixes is, “Look. We want your reservations. We want your critical eye, but we don’t need it at the ideation stage.” You just get the balloon blown up, and then the Six comes along and pops it. That deflates the team. So I think if they can be coached a little bit to wait and do that later… Because we want to hear it. They have to be assured that we’re going to hear it, but let that come in later. That keeps the organization moving forward and people from resenting them or mischaracterizing them as a negative influence or negative personality. Do you see that, Ian?

Ian: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I’ll tell you what makes a great Six leader is they’re very attune to authority. The theme of authority and authority figures is a very big deal in the life of a Six. They can vacillate between being a little bit too blindly loyal to an authority figure or distrustful of an authority figure, and it kind of goes back and forth, sloshing around between those two, for one that’s not very self-aware. Because of that, when they’re the leader, they’re very concerned with being loyal and avoiding all of the pitfalls leaders can fall into in terms of pursuing personal gain.

It’s fantastic when you have a very strong Six leader, and of course, guess what: the world is full of unpredictability and possible pain, and if all you have is Threes, Sevens, and Eights charging forward in an organization without some Six who can tap the brakes and say, “Whoa! Wait a minute; this could go wrong,” then you have all manner of train wrecks that are possible.

Michael: I would think they may suffer from some of the same problem a One does, and that is procrastination, but for a different reason. They don’t want to get started because they’re afraid they’re going to make the wrong choice or pursue the wrong thing or they haven’t had enough expert opinion yet, whereas a One just wants to get it perfect.

Ian: Yeah. If you want to hear a great interview between a CEO who is a Seven and one that’s a Six, on my podcast Typology, I was consulting with a company called Booster. Very successful, a thousand employees, a young Seven CEO who hired and is his best friend an older, more experienced Six to be his CFO.

I’m telling you, it is really an exemplar of what you want to see in an organization, where the Seven knows, “I’m a Seven. I need someone next to me who cares about meeting payroll. I’m the dreamer. I’m the ideator. I’m the cheerleader. I’m the guy who runs through the hallways inspiring people, but if I don’t have a Six in the house, we’re in trouble.”

As with every type, we have to cool our excesses and not become so over-reliant on our superpower that it becomes this liability in the organization. If the Six over-relies on his or her ability to spot what could go wrong, it slows down productivity. That’s what it does.

Larry: Let’s move to type Seven on the Enneagram: the Enthusiast. I think if you have a Seven in your life, you do know it.

Ian: Oh yeah. The joy bomb. I love Sevens. I was out at a thing last night. If you become a teacher of the Enneagram and you’ve really studied it, after a while you can observe a person’s mannerisms, communication style, their dress… There are all different ways that you pick up on (at the risk of sounding New Agey, and I’m not) the energy the person is radiating. You can after a while begin to be fairly accurate. I tend to do it cautiously.

This young guy is out in this parking lot, and he’s 30 years old. He’s going in circles on a bike with a backpack on. He is so excited about life. He’s just shining with joy. I like to say sometimes that if the Six suffers from paranoia when they’re unhealthy, worry about what could go wrong, the Seven suffers from “pro-noia,” which is the delusional belief that the world is conspiring for their happiness.

Michael: I love that delusion.

Ian: It’s just pro-noia. And who doesn’t find that winning and charming? Of course, it has its downsides when it’s all in service to avoiding difficult feelings and wanting to escape difficult feelings. Now, here’s where they get into trouble with productivity. First, they’re easily distracted. They go from one idea to the next. They’re idea generators, and they’ll go from one thing to the next without finishing.

Michael: Yes. They have a hard time finishing.

Ian: They’re not good closers. Oftentimes, on the verge of success, they’ll slow things down, because they’re afraid that when it closes and everything has gone great that someone is going to ask them to do it again, and the last thing a Seven wants to do is something that becomes routine. I tell people, “Make sure with Sevens that you have a wide-ranging job description, you’re giving them a lot of space, that the job has a lot of different pieces to it, so they don’t become bored,” which is pretty easy.

They have to develop what we call in the Enneagram world sobriety, which has nothing to do with abstinence from chemical substances or alcohol, but sobriety means focus. Get it done. Focus. Someone who’s leading a Seven has to keep… It’s like when you have a puppy on a leash. You have to go, “Heel. Heel. Keep going. Heel.” Because their attention is going to… You know, all of the possibilities around them.

Michael: They have to be reigned in periodically.

Ian: They have to be reigned in and just held to getting it all done, but like anything else in life, we want to make sure that in terms of productivity, the gifts we bring, which are considerable with Sevens and every other type, don’t so intoxicate us… Because it’s our natural zone. For the Seven, it’s like, “Guess what. You’re going to have to expend more calories to be a finisher. It’s not your nature.”

“Hey, as a Three, you’re going to have to do things that require that you expend more calories,” like I have to expend more calories listening to the feelings of others and caring for other people and keeping my feelings online. Sure, it expends calories. Well, welcome to life. You don’t get to be in your sweet zone all the time, and it’s part of the growth thing for us.

Michael: But don’t you think that with the Seven…? One of the ways I’ve coached them in the past is to pair themselves with somebody who is a finisher. In other words, if they’re the ideator, they can pair themselves with somebody who’s an implementer who can take the idea, flesh it out, do the more tedious parts of the job so that it gets finished.

I can think of one of my best friends who’s a Seven and really struggled with that for a number of years until he got paired with the right person, and now they are tearing up the world, because he can stay more in his sweet zone… I’m not saying he doesn’t have to finish things, but stay more in that sweet zone of ideating and have somebody else carry it into the end zone.

Ian: Yeah, totally. I would also say that Sevens are such amazing ideators they can just keep generating idea and idea and idea, and that also can become a problem with execution. Also it can confuse their team, because the team doesn’t know what the Seven… For example, for a Six and for other types, they hear all that at the table, and they’re like, “Are we supposed to execute on all that?” So the Seven has to say, “Okay. I just gave you 40 ideas. Here are the two I want you to execute on so that you can be productive.”

Michael: That’s where it takes real self-awareness. All of these numbers take self-awareness, but particularly for the Seven.

Larry: I worked with a Seven very closely for a while, and here’s a tip for a Seven and a One who work together. When the Seven throws out all of these ideas, the One should understand they don’t expect them to be done now.

Ian: Actually, if ever, because they’re going to come in tomorrow with 40 new ideas. What the Seven needs to hear from the One and other types is, “Okay, Bob (or Jane), which of those do you want us to execute on? Which of those is the plan, and which of those are you processing aloud or just being enthusiastic about aloud? That’s fine. We’re all in favor of that. We love your enthusiasm and your ideas. We just need clarity as to which of those you want us to execute on.”

Larry: Let’s move to type Eight on the Enneagram, which is often called the Challenger, sometimes called the Protector.

Ian: Or the Defender is another lovely word for the Eight. The Challengers. The Challenger has more energy than any other type on the Enneagram. Sometimes I’ll tell people, “Threes get more done than any other number, but Eights have far more energy than any other number.” They’ll get a ton done, and they’ll sleep on the floor to get things done because of all that energy.

What Eights have to be careful of in terms of productivity is sometimes they act before they think. Of course, you know that can end up leading to making big decisions… And Eights are big decision-makers. They make big decisions, and they make them oftentimes very, very quickly. They just have to be careful that they don’t make impulsive decisions, because as you know, that leads to a lack of productivity, if people are cleaning up the mess of a big decision that wasn’t well considered. Eights can burn themselves out. I’ve seen Eights work so hard that they are out of touch. Eights tend to forget they’re not invincible, physically, emotionally invincible.

Michael: It doesn’t occur to them.

Ian: It does not occur to them.

Michael: No self-awareness about that.

Ian: I mean, they can gain it, usually after they’ve…

Michael: Hit a wall.

Ian: Hit a physical wall, hit an emotional wall. They just don’t see it coming, because they think they can do anything. Maybe they’re a little bit like the Black Knight in Monty Python. They cut off a leg. They just keep going. You cut off an arm. They keep going until they have no arms or legs, and they’re like, “I can still beat you.” That can create all kinds of problems for them. What Eights really need a lot of the time is someone in their life who can say, “No.” All of us need someone who can get up in our grill and say, “No.”

Michael: Is it okay to match them with the same energy? Do they like that and respect it?

Ian: You need to, particularly Eights who aren’t very self-aware.

Michael: They don’t pick up on subtle.

Ian: They don’t pick up on subtle, they’re black-and-white thinkers, and they tend to be put off by people who exhibit weakness. They can just dismiss them. It’s like you’re invisible. So, yeah, you do want to bring a lot of energy to the table. You don’t want to allow an Eight to steamroll you, and the way to avoid that is to try to match…not escalate but match their energy.

Oftentimes, what feels like anger to other people is just passion. It’s just intensity. That’s why the Eight often is like, “I’m not angry,” and everyone else is like, “Yeah, you’re intimidating the crud out of the rest of us.” The Eight needs to go, “Oh, I was just kind of passionate. I was just worked up.” Everyone else meanwhile is hiding under their desk.

Again, wow! What powerful leaders when they’re self-aware. They are quite productive because of all that energy. It just needs to be channeled. They just need to channel the energy and not have it be diffuse but focused. Do you know the difference? Diffuse meaning it’s just flowing in every direction. It just needs to get channeled correctly, and they do need someone who can come alongside them and put the brakes on all that gusto and help them channel it. Again, great gifts but great liabilities if they don’t address them.

Michael: Do you think that number has particular challenges with self-awareness?

Ian: No. I don’t think it has less…

Michael: Maybe it’s just the ones I know. I don’t know that many, but I do know a few Eights, ones I’ve worked for, who struggled with that.

Ian: Yes. Again, some types… I’d say Threes, Sevens, and Eights, oftentimes. First of all, all three of those numbers when they find out their numbers really like their numbers. When they’re young, it’s like, “Why would I want to change? It’s working for me. I’m crushing it. As a Three, I’m flying up the ladder faster than anybody.” “As a Seven, I’m charming. Everybody loves me. I’m a great storyteller. I bring a lot of juice to the table.” The Eight is like, “I’m crushing it because everybody elects me leader in a second. I have more energy than any other type.”

So for those three types, sometimes they have to hit a wall before they wake up. Other types can wake up faster than those three, because it’s just, “Why wake up? Who has a problem? I don’t have a problem yet.” Well, eventually they can. A divorce comes along, a failure in business comes along, whatever it is that can bring them down…exhaustion, a heart attack. I don’t want to sound so negative, but every type when it’s in a bad space is negative, but for those three types, sometimes the wake-up call takes a little bit longer than it does for others.

I would say that any number that is a truth-teller and has the courage and the assertive energy… That might be a Three. Sevens don’t like confrontation so much, although they can do it, but a Three can come alongside an Eight. Another Eight who’s older and more self-aware can. I think a One can. Ones can be assertive. Someone who can come alongside them and make them aware of what’s in the shadow, what’s in their blind spot, and can help them mitigate some of the excesses of their type.

Larry: I would say that where I’ve seen this is with Fours who on any issue, as you said, with truth-telling or integrity will not back down.

Ian: I think you’re talking about Sixes.

Larry: Maybe. The Eights are so strong in everything they say, at least the ones I’ve known. They don’t have any humble opinions. Their opinions are truth in their minds, but someone who has that passion for matters of integrity or truth will stand right up to that, where they might otherwise be even a little bit conflict-shy, but, oh, when you start talking about right and wrong or issues like that, they’ll go toe to toe with anybody.

Ian: Without going too far into the weeds of this, for each of the nine types there are three subtypes. There is actually a number on the Enneagram… You’re going to laugh when I tell you this. This is how you learn that the Enneagram is easy to learn but hard to master. You don’t need to be a master to get a lot out of it, but here I’m going to take you down a 2.0. There is one number on the Enneagram that is more aggressive and could scare an Eight. What do you think it is?

Michael: Okay, don’t say it. What’s the subtype called?

Ian: Countertype of which number?

Michael: Four.

Ian: It’s the One-on-One Four or sometimes called the Sexual Four. People don’t like that term, but it’s the One-on-One Four. Absolutely correct. That number is intense, especially when it’s not in a great space. I’m telling you, an Eight would hide under the bed when a Sexual Four gets loose. Sexual meaning not in the sexual sense of the word. That’s what it’s called. You’d have to go do some research on subtypes, but it’s incredibly helpful.

Another number that could definitely stand up is what’s called a Counterphobic Six. That can be quite aggressive and oftentimes people confuse with an Eight. Again, do you need to go into that depth with the Enneagram? No, you don’t, but it’s really helpful if you want to apply this thing in deeper and deeper ways.

Larry: Well, this brings us to the last number on the Enneagram scale, which is type Nine: the Peacemaker.

Ian: Golly, these are amazing people. You’re going to want to have these people in your life. Now, productivity is an issue for Nines, so we could probably spend a long time on it. For Nines, they’re easily distractible. They get caught up in inessential tasks. They, like Sevens, can have difficulty finishing but for a whole different reason. It has to do with distractibility, and they have difficulty with prioritizing, like which task has to come first, which can drive other types crazy.

They lead by consensus, so that can slow things down, because they’re trying to make sure everybody… They’re wonderful in terms of inclusion. They’re the most inclusive number on the Enneagram, but of course, that oftentimes can slow productivity down. You can’t get everybody on board sometimes. Some people have to get on board whether they like it or not or hear about it at some other point. Whatever.

Nines are terrific leaders…I think some of our very best presidents have been Nines…partly because they are so good at seeing all of the sides to different things, so they’re great negotiators, which is, in part, why we call them the Peacemakers. I can’t say enough good things about Nines, but they get caught in inertia. Once they get going, they can spin on habit for years, but once they slow down or stop, it’s hard to get them going again. So these are the things Nines have to worry about. I’m always telling Nines, “Wunderlist. Find an app that has a list app, a to-do list,” and I tell them, “You actually need a ‘to-finish’ list.” Not a to-do list; a to-finish list.

Michael: I’m married to a Nine. Gail is a Nine. One of the things that has really helped her, and not to plug one of our own products, but the Full Focus Planner. She was kind of resistant to it, but once she started identifying her Daily Big 3, I’ve seen a dramatic change. She is getting so much done, and she’s leading her small team… She has two people who work with her here at the house, and I see her in her staff meetings, and she’s like, “Okay. What are your Daily Big 3 for today?” She’s really focused on that. So just having the right tool… It’s a simple tool, it’s not too complicated, but it has been very helpful for her.

Ian: Yeah. We all have to have someone in our lives who can make up for our deficits. With a Nine, give someone permission to help you with prioritizing. No harm, no foul here. Part of humility and being a person who’s productive is asking, “What are the obstacles to my being productive? Who is uniquely qualified to help me overcome those obstacles?” A Nine can be really helped by a Three.

Michael: They have to be careful there.

Ian: Well, you have to be careful when you’re married, when it’s in your marriage. Less so at the office or with a friend. You can ask friends to help. I’m a Four, and when I start to get lost in my feelings and in my imagination, which is pretty rich, I need a One to come along and say, “It’s time to get to work. It’s time to execute on this stuff.” But it’s a One I need, in some ways, more than a Three.

I could go through each of these types and probably tell you what kind of type would help them to really get their game on if they needed to find an “accountability partner,” somebody who could come alongside them and help them with their deficits. Can I give an example of it really fast? I’m going to actually go against something I just said. I’ve said this a million times, so, folks, if you’ve heard me on an interview before, go forward seven seconds.

You said something to me once that was a game changer. I was acting like a Four. I was blaming other people for dropping balls. I was just disappointed. I was seeing what was missing, not what was present. I was stuck in my feelings and not being enough of a critical thinker, and you just came alongside me.

It was before a dinner party one night, and I was just moaning and groaning in the kitchen while you were making drinks, and you said, “You know, you blame people a lot for stuff in your life that maybe you participate in the problem.” It was something to that effect, and it threw me back on my heels. I remember I was walking home that night from your house with Anne, and I said, “He’s totally right.”

Michael: I remember that conversation, but you never did it again. I’ve never heard you do it again. I think you made some self-correction there that was profound.

Ian: This is what I’m saying. We need people in our lives who can tell us truths about areas of our lives we just can’t see.

Michael: It’s true for all of us.

Ian: It’s true for all of us. For every type, to become the healthiest, best expression of our type and to become more productive and to become people who are really, because we’re productive, making a significant difference in the world, we need people to come alongside of us who understand us and who can, with compassion and clarity, speak truth into our lives in a way that we hopefully can hear and use.

Larry: Well, today we’ve learned that you’re normal.

Michael: Nine ways to be normal.

Larry: There are nine ways to be normal.

Ian: That’s exactly right.

Larry: But despite you being normal, you probably do have a challenge to your productivity, and we’ve explored that through the nine types of the Enneagram. Again, if you want to find out your type or learn more about it, two great resources are Ian Cron’s book The Road Back to You and the iEQ9 Enneagram assessment. We’ll have a link to both of those great resources in the show notes today at leadto.win. Final thoughts today, Michael, Ian, on the Enneagram and productivity?

Ian: I am such a believer in the Enneagram. I’m familiar with so many other personality or strengths assessments. I think they’re all fantastic. I don’t have a down thing or negative thing to say about any of them. I just think the Enneagram is such a rich, broad, and immediately accessible and applicable tool that you can continue to use. It offers people a vernacular to talk about their interior world, a language to talk about how they can grow as human beings and become more productive by removing the obstacles, many of which we can’t see without help, and the Enneagram can help reveal them.

So much of productivity is about “How do I overcome the hindrances?” Not just, “How do I employ new tools?” It’s like, “How do I get rid of stuff that prevents me from being productive?” versus going out and buying the latest app and the next book. Yeah, do that, but you also have to look at “What do I have to throw overboard that’s throwing me off my game?”

Michael: Yeah. The thing I was thinking as you were talking is that if you want to move beyond tips and techniques and strategies and apps and all the stuff we think of when we think of productivity, and if you want to be truly productive, then I think you have to delve a little bit into your own psychology and be more aware of what’s driving the behavior, and you couldn’t do better…

In fact, I would say, the most important thing you could do if you want to take your productivity to the next level is buy Ian’s book and read it. It’ll create endless and productive conversations inside your family, inside your workplace, inside your church. It has been a great tool for us. We’ve had Ian come in twice and speak to our team, and they’re begging for him to come back, so this has just been hugely helpful for us. So, Ian, thank you for being with us.

Ian: Are you kidding? I look forward to coming over to Michael Hyatt & Company any day of the week. You guys have been and continue to be an inspiration to me in my work, and I honestly would not be enjoying the fruits of my work in any way close to what it has become without your influence on my life.

Michael: Thank you. We’re raving fans. Thank you also, Larry, for walking with us through this, and special thanks to all of you for joining us on Lead to Win. Join us next time when we share with you some next-level strategies that’ll take your productivity to a whole new level. Until then, lead to win.