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Michael Hyatt: In 1954, Martin Luther King Jr. became pastor at Dexter Avenue Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. He was just 25 years old. Nobody could have predicted he was about to turn the world upside down.

[Clip]

Martin Luther King Jr.: I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.

[End of clip]

Michael: It started when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a segregated public bus in 1955. She was arrested and fined by the city, and in response, King led the Montgomery bus boycott.

[Clip]

Martin Luther King Jr.: And that was the day when we decided that we were not going to take segregated buses any longer.

[End of clip]

Michael: Ultimately, the US Supreme Court sided with the boycotters and ruled Alabama’s bus segregation laws unconstitutional in 1956. A year after that, King formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, spoke before his first national audience, and made the cover of TIME magazine, but that was only the beginning.

Megan Hyatt Miller: King’s organizing and protest work continued into the late 50s and early 60s with sit-ins and protests, culminating in the events of 1963. Not only did he write his most influential work, Letter from Birmingham Jail, but he also led the march on Washington, attended by over 200,000 people. It was the hundredth anniversary of Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, and King gave his stirring “I have a dream” speech from the steps of the Lincoln Memorial.

The demonstration galvanized national support for civil rights. Earlier that summer, President John F. Kennedy introduced the nation’s most sweeping civil rights legislation to date. King’s advocacy was instrumental in its passage in 1964. TIME picked King as its Person of the Year, and in 1964 the Nobel Committee made him the youngest ever recipient of the Peace Prize.

Michael: There was more work to do, of course, but King had initiated changes that would transform American society. That’s why the nation celebrates Martin Luther King Jr. Day on the third Monday of every January. It’s a chance to reflect on what he meant for the nation and what made his leadership so successful.

Hi, I’m Michael Hyatt.

Megan: And I’m Megan Hyatt Miller.

Michael:  And this is Lead to Win, our weekly podcast to help you win at work, succeed at life, and lead with confidence. In this episode, we’re going to explore the leadership legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. Hey, Meg.

Megan: Hey, Dad.

Michael: This is a pretty exciting topic. Even though we celebrated it in the US yesterday, we think, as we were saying before the show, Martin Luther King Jr. Day should not just be a day, but it’s really a way of thinking, and it has so many leadership lessons that apply 365 days a year.

Megan: Totally agree. In fact, there are five we’re going to talk about today from his life. You want to jump into the first?

Michael: I do. The first lesson, particularly for leaders, is that you have to reject the status quo. Think a little bit about the historical context. Segregation was nearly universal in the South. It’s hard for us to relate to this because so much has happened precisely because of Dr. King’s legacy, but there was a time when this was not the norm. The status quo was segregation. The North certainly had its problems too, but what happened to Rosa Parks was the norm.

I think it’s easy for us to look back on that and think somehow that was an exception, that that’s not really how people lived, but that was the norm. That was the status quo. But just because something is normal doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. Norms can change, and they have to change. In fact, you don’t actually need a leader unless you want to change. If you’re happy with the status quo, don’t hire a leader. You don’t have to be a leader to maintain the status quo. You only have to be a leader if you want to change the status quo, and that’s exactly what Dr. King did.

Megan: Absolutely. It reminds me of that quote from him that says, “Montgomery is known as the cradle of the Confederacy…but now the cradle is rocking.”

Michael: I love that.

Megan: I get chills when I read that. It’s really amazing. It reminds me of the fact that, as a leader, not only can norms change and you can reject the status quo, but in order to do that there’s a level of courage and bravery that’s required in naming the reality of the situation, not hiding it. That’s kind of the first step: calling it what it is, and that quote I just read is profound.

Michael: I think also declaring that it’s unacceptable, just be willing to reject it. I remember when I became the president of Thomas Nelson Publishers before I was the CEO, because I was the president and the COO. I started changing some things, and I’ll never forget that one of my direct reports’ assistant… A message she was saying got back to me, and she said, “Why does he have to change stuff?” I thought, “Why not?”

To me, change is inevitable for any growing, living organism. Everything in our business, for example, we’re constantly tweaking, constantly evolving. We don’t leave anything alone, but particularly when you’re looking at a situation where there’s this systemic injustice and there are these moral implications of it and they need to be rectified…

I think that’s one of the things… As leaders, we can’t get dull to that. There is such an emphasis in our society today about being politically correct or going with the flow or we don’t want to get the resistance from people because we’re stopping to name things that aren’t right that are part of the status quo.

The whole #MeToo movement. That’s a situation where there was the status quo, the accepted quid pro quo, to use another Latin phrase, of “If you want a job in this industry, you have to give sexual favors,” and finally some people said, “No. That’s not how it’s going to work. That’s not how it should work,” and now we’re seeing this entire resistance movement, this reckoning, as it has been called, that has happened in the US, and I think it’s a really, really good thing.

Megan: Rejecting the status quo starts with vision, and I think that’s what we’re talking about here: a vision for something better, which would be the answer to the staff person at Thomas Nelson. “Why does he have to change things?” Because he has a vision for something better, and that was true 10x and then some for Dr. King. It makes me think about the flip side of that, which is…What is the cost of accepting the status quo as a leader, just broadly? What has been your experience with that?

Michael: Well, usually it means we settle for something less than could be. We lose vision. We don’t allow vision to flourish.

Megan: Because it’s too risky. Right?

Michael: Right. And you start building cynicism into the culture. Probably that’s how it was in Hollywood. That’s probably how it is in a lot of other industries and a lot of places. Just that accepting of the status quo tends to make people cynical, like, “It’s never going to get better. It can’t get any better.”

Megan: “I guess we just have to cope.” What a gross word, by the way: cope. It sort of feels like resignation, like you’re just going to sit there and cope.

Michael: Putting up with.

Megan: No coping, people. Change is what we want.

Michael: I have to tell you this story. After Apple founder and CEO Steve Jobs died in 2011 (it wasn’t that long ago), his wife Laurene Powell said this at his funeral, and I’m quoting. “It is hard enough to see what is already there, to remove the many impediments to a clear view of reality, but Steve’s gift was even greater: he saw clearly what was not there, what could be there, what had to be there. His mind was never a captive of reality.” Love that. “Quite the contrary,” she goes on. “He imagined what reality lacked, and he set out to remedy it.” That’s exactly what Dr. King did.

Megan: Absolutely. The second lesson is to reframe limiting beliefs, and this is something you talk about in your book Your Best Year Ever.

Michael: Yeah. I find the biggest impediment to us accomplishing anything happens in our minds because we have these limiting beliefs. They’re not reality. They’re the map of reality, but we confuse the map with the reality. For example, some limiting beliefs Dr. King had to face in our culture were things like, “The civil rights movement is asking for too much too fast.” There’s always that tendency. “Slow down the change. Just take your time. It’ll come eventually,” which it usually doesn’t without a catalyst and without somebody moving quickly.

Another limiting belief was, “The civil rights movement is stirring up unnecessary trouble,” or “Nonviolence won’t move the needle; armed resistance is needed.” He didn’t just face it on one side but he faced it on the other side. He was really a voice of moderation. He didn’t cave to either extreme. Here is another limiting belief: “Whites won’t change. Racial reconciliation is impossible.” Or here is another one: “Racism is ingrained in the culture. We’ll never change that, let alone the law.” Now the thing about limiting beliefs is they’re usually based on experience.

Megan: Right. I was going to say, when you’re reading that list, you could back up any one of those things, or at least the last few, with some great historical facts of why they would be true.

Michael: Totally.

Megan: And they could keep you really stuck.

Michael: You have these experiences, and then they calcify. You have these experiences, and then they turn into beliefs about the world, so you generalize. You go global with it. For example, you might have an experience with racism or with somebody from another race, and then you universalize that experience and say, “Everybody from that group is like this.”

Megan: Especially if there has been injustice involved in that, some kind of trauma, fear, anything like that. Those emotions really galvanize limiting beliefs just generally, but I think with this list that’s especially true. It was a powerful thing to overcome.

Michael: What’s remarkable is that Dr. King and others in the movement didn’t accept those beliefs. They had this steadfast persistence that reality could be different. Somehow they understood… I don’t think they would have used this language, but they understood that those were limiting beliefs and they were holding the movement back and they were really holding our country back.

Megan: Not only did Dr. King and the other leaders of the movement reject the status quo but they also accepted what was a truly daring vision for what was possible. Talk about seeing into the future where nothing like this existed. When you listen to the “I have a dream” speech and think about the reality of what was going on, and then you think about the words Dr. King painted of racial reconciliation and unity… It was radical. It did not exist. It was totally unimaginable until the words came out of his mouth.

[Clip]

Martin Luther King Jr.: Let freedom ring. And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania. Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado. Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California. But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia. Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee. Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring. And when this happens…

[End of clip]

Michael: In retrospect, standing as we are in 2018, this all looked like it was inevitable. It looked like it must have been easy, but it was unbelievably difficult, because they were facing this pervasive culture-wide limiting belief or set of limiting beliefs that had to be overcome. The only way you overcome that as a leader is to paint a picture of a better, more desirable, vivid future, and that’s exactly what he did.

Megan: Absolutely.

Michael: One of the questions is…Why do limiting beliefs have the power they do? I think one of the reasons they do is because we’re largely unaware of them.

Megan: That’s so true.

Michael: I can see your limiting beliefs. I can see somebody else’s limiting beliefs, but to see my own limiting beliefs takes a tremendous amount of self-awareness. That’s one of the things I’ve tried to do in the book Your Best Year Ever: to give people a process for excavating their own limiting beliefs and going on a scavenger hunt for them, if you will, inside their own psyche, because these things will derail you more than any other single thing as a leader, and we have to find them and disempower them. The only way we do that is to reframe them with a vision of a different kind of future.

The third lesson from Martin Luther King Jr.’s leadership is the importance of listening. As leaders, we tend to think of our role as primarily talking. We’re using our words to create a vision. We’re directing other people. We’re in meetings. Blah, blah, blah. But in her book My Time with the Kings, AP reporter Kathryn Johnson talked about King’s opposition to the Vietnam War. Now get this. At one point, while discussing his objections, he asked Johnson, “How do you feel about US involvement in Vietnam?”

She was flattered he cared about her opinion. He asked her, the reporter, the question. She said not only was King an eloquent speaker but he was a superb listener. I’ve heard this about a lot of leaders. It’s critically important, because it’s the first step in creating alignment. If people don’t feel like they’ve been heard, if you’re not listening to them, they’re very much less likely to follow you, so it’s an essential leadership skill, and Dr. King really demonstrated that.

Megan: There’s nothing worse than stepping out in front of the microphone with some message only to realize you got it all wrong and you were totally tone deaf, and there you are, and what are you going to do? That was not like Dr. King, though. In fact, it kind of goes back to the beginning with the Montgomery bus boycott. He said, “I neither started the protest nor suggested it. I simply responded to the call of the people for a spokesperson.” Isn’t that great?

Michael: That’s a great place to start as a leader.

Megan: It is. He listened to the people around him, and the truth is that is what all effective leaders do. He listened to what was going on, and then he asked himself how he could help.

Michael: It kind of begs the question…Why don’t leaders listen more? Or why do so many leaders just not get this? Why do you think it is?

Megan: I think it’s partly out of habit, because I think our people look to us to move a vision forward, to share a vision, to make decisions, to make calls, all of those things we think of traditionally as leadership skills or leadership responsibilities. I think if we’re not really intentional about listening it can kind of fall by the wayside as a skill, and it is a skill. It’s a discipline and a skill.

Michael: It is. I think it can also come out of a subtle form of pride, where we think we’re the leader because… We’d never say this out loud, but we’re the smartest person. We have the answers. We have the most experience. A lot of leaders want to be efficient. They want to be productive. So you get together in a meeting. Why wait for everybody else’s perspective when, obviously, you see the truth of the situation? You have a handle on it, you know what the solution should be, so let’s just get it out there and get back to work. Right?

Megan: It could save everybody so much time.

Michael: As a leader, one thing I had to learn… I thought initially in my role as a leader it was all about having the answers. What I grew to realize is it is actually about having the right questions.

Megan: So true.

Michael: You have to be able to put the questions out there and draw people out. One of the things I learned, too, as a leader is never go first. We’ve talked about that. If you go into a meeting and you’re the first one to volunteer your opinion, guess what? The entire room shifts to that opinion, because people feel like they have to go along to get along or somehow that’s the right answer, and it’s not. I find that if I go last… Actually, my predecessor at Thomas Nelson, Sam Moore, did this. He would go last, because he wanted to get the best thinking of the group.

Megan: Without biasing it. This reminds me of something I read in a book called Meetings Suck by Cameron Herold a couple of years ago. He has this method of leading meetings where he has the least senior person go first when there’s some kind of a contribution to be made. He’s very intentional about it.

He’ll prep the other leaders in the group if it’s kind of a bigger meeting, for example, and he’ll have those people who are sort of at the bottom of the org chart go first, because otherwise they’re often silenced by the opinions of their supervisors. Sometimes the very best contributions come from those people. He says, “My goal is to have nothing to contribute when it’s finally my turn, that all the best ideas have already been shared before it was my turn.”

Michael: I love that. Sort of the paradox of it is you look like a genius as a leader, because you’ve listened, you’ve built trust, and you’ve validated the role of other people in the room. It’s a great leadership skill, and we need to cultivate that, and Dr. King is a good example of it.

Megan: Dad, before we continue our conversation, I want to pause for just a minute to talk about your latest book, Your Best Year Ever.

Michael: We have some news, and I’m a little bit excited about this. The book hit #1 on the Wall Street Journal hardcover business list, which is amazing. I’ve never had a book hit #1 on the Wall Street Journal list, so that’s pretty exciting. It also was #35 on the USA Today best seller list. The thing you have to remember about that list is it’s all genres, cookbooks, Instapot books…

Megan: Whole30.

Michael: Coloring books, a little bit of everything. All genres, so, paperback, hardcover, everything. So #35 on that list and a few other lists too. I’m really excited about that, mainly because that means thousands and thousands of people are on their way to their best year ever, because hopefully they’ve read the book, they’re beginning to apply it, and they’ve begun to design what 2018 is going to be.

The cool thing is that right now when you buy the book you can still get hundreds of dollars worth of free bonuses, and you can claim those regardless of where you buy the book or in what format you buy it…Kindle, Audible, hardcover, whatever it is. Go to yourbestyeareverbook.com to claim the bonuses.

Megan: Awesome. I really hope all of you guys will check that out. Remember, it’s yourbestyeareverbook.com. Now let’s dive back into our conversation.

Michael: The fourth leadership lesson from Dr. King is to create an inclusive vision. You can really, really hear this in the “I have a dream” speech, but it was true of the movement he led. It was people of all different backgrounds…racial, confessional, religious. He knew diversity made the movement stronger, and I think, even more importantly, he was modeling on a smaller scale what he hoped to achieve on a grand scale.

Megan: It’s really true. It’s the same with any team. Diversity feeds team creativity, resourcefulness, resilience, all of those things. When we’re all the same… I mean, let’s be honest. The ideas aren’t that great. We kind of see things through one lens. It becomes kind of boring and not that innovative, but diversity of all kinds helps us to break through that. Racial diversity is part of that, certainly, but it’s even beyond that…cultural diversity, cognitive diversity, personality diversity, skill-set diversity. One of the challenges for leaders is that if they’re not careful they end up just hiring a bunch of people who are exactly like them.

Michael: Look like them, talk like them, sound like them, went to the same schools, all that.

Megan: Besides being kind of creepy, it doesn’t really work well.

Michael: Well, if you think about it, diversity is something that’s inherent in creation. God made the world incredibly rich and diverse for a reason, because we could all benefit from it. For example, if we only thought there was a certain color of flower that was the right flower and everything else was wrong, it would be a very boring world, but there’s this rich diversity, whether it comes to race or experience or language or any of that. One of the things we try to do at Michael Hyatt & Company is we want to build a company that reflects our audience. We have a very diverse audience; therefore, we want to create the most diverse team culture that we possibly can.

Megan: This is one of those things that is really important to think about when you talk about strengths on your team, personality, those kinds of things, because it can become very monochromatic, for lack of a better word, just boring with no real diversity, but we’ve found we need people who are very different than us with very different strengths, very different ways of initiating work, very different ways of coming up with ideas, and what we’re able to create on the other side of that is so much richer, so much more beautiful than if everybody was like you or like me.

Michael: It’s true. The thing about diversity is that it can create tension in an organization unless you learn how to manage it. I’ve asked Chris Williamson, senior pastor of Strong Tower Bible Church in Nashville, Tennessee, for his thoughts about managing that tension.

Chris Williamson: When it comes to managing the tension of diversity in your organization, I think there are a couple of things to consider. First, we need to be honest that the tension even exists in our organization. Sometimes we have rose-colored glasses and don’t like to think that things are hostile or that the environment is somewhat distressed, but the truth is we don’t live in a post-racial society. Race is still very much a real factor, and it has to be dealt with.

So we have to be honest about where we’ve come from, where we are, and where we need to go. Without honesty, we can’t have the transparency we need that will get us to the place of unity and harmony in the workplace. So we have to be honest. Just because we have different experiences, that doesn’t mean someone’s experience is not valid. We need to listen to the voices of those who may be a little bit lower on the organization chart or flowchart in terms of what their grievances or complaints may be from their vantage point. We need to give validity. We have to be honest.

Secondly, we have to embrace this tension. No problem will be corrected without being confronted, so we have to lean into what’s uncomfortable. We have to lean into what may make us feel somewhat not at ease. But you know what? In every relationship there are going to be moments of tension, and the only way to solve these disagreements is to press in, to lean in, and we do that because the goal of the organization is bigger than any one person.

The mission of the organization, the product we’re sending forth, is so important we have to get through trivial yet important issues. There’s something bigger at stake, so we don’t want to keep pulling over to address an issue. We want to be able to, yes, get it addressed but keep the big picture in mind, so we have to embrace the problem. If not, it will come back to bite us at a time where it’s going to be really inconvenient.

Finally, when it comes to managing the tension of diversity in an organization, we need to make practical steps to alleviate the tension. Again, if we don’t address it in a pragmatic, qualitative way, then once again history will repeat itself and the definition of insanity will prove to be true: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. To see new results we have to do some new things.

Just yesterday, a white colleague of mine shared with me some tension in his job. He just got hired after a long search with many candidates. He accepted the job and stepped into the role, and it was not too long before he realized the people who were under him had issues with the process and even with him, because there were black people who weren’t considered for the role at all, people who had been with the company for almost two decades who were not included in the search for the role.

So when my friend came in, he had tension from jump street, right there, but I’m proud of him, because he embraced the tension and listened to the people. He listened to the frustration of those who felt slighted, overlooked by the organization. What happened is because he listened to them, they said to him, “You are the first white person to listen to us and to consider our issues, our concerns, and even our complaints.”

Because he listened, trust began to build, and they got to see in him, even though he’s new, that he may be an ally to their cause. He was able to help quell that situation simply by listening, and now he has the ability to go to the higher-ups and share with them the voices of the people who are a little bit lower in the organization. So he’s using his privilege and his access to empower people who are normally not as powerful.

We have to make some practical steps. How do we hear people? How do we make steps to be intentional to be inclusive in our hiring, especially in the upper echelon of the organization? When it comes to managing the tension, we also have to face the reality that everything won’t always smooth out and we may not always have a kum-ba-yah moment.

Some people will walk away from the organization, and they will be frustrated. In my case, I happen to be a pastor, and I pastor a multicultural church in the South. Many times, I am misinterpreted, misunderstood, and when people feel the tension that comes from diversity and us calling things as they are, they walk away. Not only will they walk away; they’ll criticize us in the process.

But I’m okay with that, because, once again, our vision and what we’re called to do is bigger than any one disgruntled employee, member, or person watching on the sidelines. Just expect it to happen, but there will be many people who will be thankful that you went there. There will be many people who will stay with you, who will hang with the organization as you face these kinds of tumultuous waters.

Michael: The fifth and final lesson I want to cover is a tricky one. I almost thought about not including this, because it’s going to be challenging for us to navigate this in a way that’s helpful and that people don’t misinterpret. We probably will be misunderstood. That’s fine. Here it is: your private life can affect your leadership in the moment and in your legacy.

During his career, people (including the federal government, by the way) tried smearing King and damaging his reputation. Most of it didn’t stick. His vision and his leadership were overpowering. But after his death, some of the charges, like philandering and plagiarizing his PhD thesis, have caused some doubts about him. Now, again, I don’t say this to speak ill of Dr. King or of his legacy, but it’s a reality, and we have to put it out there. I think there’s a very important leadership lesson for all of us.

Megan: It’s almost like there are two parts to this. On the one hand, possible moral failings that you have as a leader can really undermine your legacy. They can cast a shadow of doubt over it. They can undermine it for sure.

Michael: Or you can completely lose it in an instant.

Megan: Or you can completely lose it if it’s really bad. On the other hand, if we’re not careful, we hold leaders to a standard that’s impossible for anyone to measure up to, and we discount or discredit their entire legacy because of a certain failing. Neither of those are good. We have to somehow hold in tension the fact that no one is perfect and that’s just a reality and all humans and especially leaders are complex, and on the other hand, that leaders are called to a higher standard. Both of those are true at the same time, and we need to be aware of it as leaders ourselves and as we think about the people we respect and try to emulate.

Michael: I think it starts as leaders by holding ourselves accountable, holding ourselves to a higher standard, and realizing that, in a sense, while our private lives and our public lives are two different things, they’re permeable. What we do in private does bleed into the public, particularly in the world of social media. I just assume I’m always being recorded.

Megan: It’s almost like there is no private anymore. That’s what you should assume as a leader. There is no private. There is no place that you’re safe to pursue indiscretions and think they won’t be found out.

Michael: I remember when I became the CEO of Thomas Nelson it was a public company, so we were traded on the New York Stock Exchange, and they covered our company. I remember my predecessor, Sam Moore, said to me, “I want you to think about this. Every decision you make, act as though it was going to be on the front page of the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal tomorrow.” I thought, “Okay, that’s a good standard.”

Megan: That was kind of pre-Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, everything else.

Michael: I heard some ladies talking about the #MeToo movement last night. I was watching TV, and this person said (and I thought this was smart too), “You know, it’s not that difficult. Just ask yourself this question. Is the way I’m treating that other person or the thing I’ve said about that other person… Would my mom be proud of me if she knew that?”

Megan: Or would I want someone to do that to my daughter?

Michael: That’s another very good way to look at it. We have to be careful about erecting a standard that is so high we don’t have any heroes, and that’s kind of what we have today, but on the other hand, letting go of the standard and just saying, “Well, that’s just the way it is. That’s the status quo.” Somehow we have to live with this tension and fight for what is right.

To me, the most important lesson of all this is not to judge other people but to look in the mirror and reflect on our own behavior and ask ourselves the question, “Am I setting the standard? Am I walking my talk? Am I living my convictions? Am I living a life worth emulating?” If we’ll do that, pretty much everything else takes care of itself.

Megan: Back to the #MeToo movement, indiscretion, infidelity, abuse, all of those things… The people who are being called out right now… Their whole professional legacy and influence is really on the line. It’s done, and that’s what we don’t want to have happen to us as leaders, and it’s totally preventable. That’s the bottom line. It’s totally preventable, and it begins with holding yourself accountable.

So, today we’ve covered five leadership lessons from the life of Martin Luther King Jr.: reject the status quo, reframe limiting beliefs, cultivate the skill of listening, leverage inclusion and diversity, and recognize that your private life affects your public influence. Dad, any final thoughts you have today?

Michael: I would say this is the great value of reading biographies. We find these leadership principles come to life. Dr. King, though he wasn’t perfect, is a hero of mine, because he did so many things well as a leader and blazed a path that we can follow and will help us as leaders if we’ll just listen to the lessons his life really expressed.

Megan: Excellent. As we close, I want to thank our sponsor LeaderBox. It provides automated personal development in a box. Check it out at leaderbox.com. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, you can get the show notes and a full transcript online at leadto.win.

Michael: Thanks again for joining us on Lead to Win. If you like the show, please tell your friends and colleagues about it, and also please leave a review of the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Megan: This program is copyrighted by Michael Hyatt & Company. All rights reserved. Our producer is Nick Jaworski.

Michael: Our writers are Joel Miller, Mandi Rivieccio, and Jeremy Lott.

Megan: Our recording engineer is Mike Boyer.

Michael: Our production assistant is Aleshia Curry.

Megan: And our intern is Winston.

Michael: We invite you to join us for our next episode, where we’ll be discussing how leaders can motivate their teams in the coming year. Until then, lead to win.