Episode: Making It Work While Working With Family

Megan Hyatt Miller: Hi, I’m Megan Hyatt Miller, and this is Lead to Win, our weekly podcast to help you win at work and succeed at life. Well, as I’ve mentioned over the last few episodes, my dad is out on his first ever three-month-long sabbatical as part of our succession plan, but he’s going to be back here with me on the podcast (I can’t wait!) in mid-October, and we’ll be excited to hear about his time away then.

In the meantime, I have the chance to host conversations with a series of special guests from inside Michael Hyatt & Company, some of my absolute favorite people on the planet who I cannot wait to introduce you guys to. That brings me to today’s guest, my sister, Marissa Hyatt, who is also our marketing director.

I should probably say she is my little sister. There are about 11 years between us, maybe 10 and a half, to be perfectly accurate. If you ask her, she’d probably say 10. If you ask me, I’d probably say 11. Beyond that, she is a wicked smart marketer, and her strategic thinking is one of the reasons products like our Full Focus Planner have been so successful. Marissa, welcome!

Marissa Hyatt: Megan, finally!

Megan: Finally!

Marissa: It only took 500 years for you to invite me on this show. No, I’m so excited to be here.

Megan: We’re going to get into a fight right from the beginning, and we’ll do therapy. It’s going to be amazing.

Marissa: Hey this is like free therapy, in my opinion. This is great.

Megan: Yeah, totally! Well, people, you’re in the right place. This is going to be fun today. Seriously, I’m so glad you’re here. We are great friends outside of work, and you are a critical part of what we’re doing inside of work, so it’s really fun to have you on the show and get to talk about something that I think we’re both pretty passionate about.

Marissa: Yes, absolutely. I couldn’t be more excited to be here and dive into talking about what it’s like to work with family. There are a lot of people out here who either do work with family or don’t and are curious what it’s like or are terrified of it. Hopefully we can shed a little bit of light on what it’s actually like.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely, and what works and what doesn’t work. We have a number of family relationships. We have our relationship together. You don’t actually report to me. There is someone in between us, our chief marketing officer, Courtney, who is my direct report on our executive team.

Then, of course, Dad. That’s interesting because I have a relationship with Dad as a business partner, and you have a relationship with Dad as our marketing director. Then we both have the daughter relationship and the sister relationship. There are lots of different relationships. If we were drawing this, it would look like a really messy star really fast, all of the triangles going back and forth.

Marissa: Exactly.

Megan: This is probably the number one question I get asked whenever we do a live event or when I’m with our clients in our Business Accelerator coaching program or leading a call with them or whatever. This is the number one thing people want to know. “What is it really like working with family, and also, what is the secret to doing it well? It seems like y’all are doing it successfully.” Is that true for you too?

Marissa: I completely agree. Any time I tell anyone that I work at Michael Hyatt & Company, the first question is, “Is Michael Hyatt your dad?” I say, “Yes. Actually, my sister is our CEO.” They immediately say, “Whoa! How is that?”

Megan: They’re actually fine with the fact that Michael Hyatt is your dad, but when they get to, “Is Megan is the CEO?” that’s when they’re like, “That’s where the problems start.”

Marissa: Well, I think it’s fascinating to people. It certainly was for me as soon as I came on, going, “How is this actually going to be?” I think people are curious about it. It’s not as common to work with your family, but when it is, it’s usually done really badly, and I think people expect that.

Megan: Right. It’s usually a hot mess. People also come and tell me all of their horror stories, or they’re in a really tough situation and want advice on how to find their way out of it and make it better. Let’s just get into it because I want to start off with some questions for you, and then we’re going to share some of what we have found to be the ingredients for making it really work. When we were considering hiring you, I can remember a conversation I had with the person who was hiring you about whether I had any concerns, but did you have any concerns about coming to work for us?

Marissa: I did.

Megan: I was going to say. We need to just go ahead and say this had better be honest, or people are not going to want to listen anymore. Y’all are getting a raw, real answer. I have no idea what she’s going to say.

Marissa: Well, people should probably know this about my personality too. I kind of have taken up residence on the honesty planet, so that’s kind of my…

Megan: You’re homesteading.

Marissa: I’m an Enneagram Eight. I’m homesteading. Exactly. I couldn’t sugar-coat this if I tried. I feel like I certainly had concerns. We are two of five sisters. There are three sisters in between us. I have worked with all three of those sisters in various different jobs, but you and I had never worked together, and I had never worked with Dad.

Honestly, I was really concerned about what it would be like to work for my dad. He’s the boss. I’m his employee. Also, just the dynamic of the power, so to speak. As an adult child, is he going to try to be manipulating my life? Similarly, with you as my oldest sister, I was nervous, to be honest, about, “Is this going to be weird?” You’re not my direct boss. I don’t report directly to you, but would there be a power struggle there? That felt like my biggest concern. Would you respect me as you would respect any other person in my position?

Megan: Sure.

Marissa: I think, honestly, my real concern was how it would affect our personal relationship.

Megan: Yeah, yours and mine.

Marissa: Yeah. “How is this going to look when…” This really never happens in our relationship, but would it create conflict between us? Would there be a weird dynamic of not being able to talk about things or being nervous to talk about things? I don’t know. I was just really concerned about how it would affect our personal relationship. Would our relationship only be about work? I definitely had a lot of concerns going in.

The other thing I had a concern about, which was less about the relationship I had with you and Dad but more so my relationship with my coworkers, was, “How are they going to see me? Are they just going to say, ‘Oh, well she’s the daughter of the bosses, so she’s just getting a free pass,” or that kind of thing? From day one, I think there was a drive within me to really need to prove myself because I was very concerned that others would see me as riding the coattails, so to speak.

Megan: Yeah. Okay, what has been the best part about working with family?

Marissa: Well, I feel like it gives us another connection point in our relationship. I feel like I love to be able to share this success with you and with Dad and to feel like we’re all winning together. When we win, it’s like we’re all winning together. I feel like I have a front-row seat to your success. It has been so fun…I truly, truly mean this…to watch you step into the CEO role into the last year and to get to see you step up as a leader.

Obviously, in your COO role, you certainly were an incredible leader, but this is to a whole other level. To get to have a front-row seat to that… And it’s truly a front-row seat, unlike our other sisters or even Dad, because I’m in it with you, really in it here kind of on the ground, so to speak. It has been so fun to get to watch you just grow into this incredible, inspiring leader that you are today. To me, that is one of the best, best parts.

Megan: Aw! That’s so nice. I just want to hug you.

Marissa: One of my favorite things is I have felt more purpose in this job than any other job I’ve been in. Unlike other positions where I was certainly very motivated and had a lot of purpose, this one feels deeper to me because I feel like I have a true stake in it. This is the family business. It carries more weight to me. It carries more purpose. I feel more motivated about the legacy and all of that that we’re leaving because I am so deeply connected to it.

Megan: I love that. That’s awesome. You know, we haven’t really talked about this in this way. This is fun.

Marissa: I know. It is.

Megan: We’re kind of in this conversation for the first time at some level. Y’all are getting to hear it when it’s happening in real life.

Okay, we have to let people in on the rules we followed that have made this not just doable but I think really successful and something we all feel like… I would include Dad and Joel in that too. They are obviously not here with us today, but all four of us would agree that the benefits dramatically outweigh any negatives. Let’s talk about the rules we have put in place that we’re really mindful of.

The first rule is to put your expectations in writing. If we rewind back to when we were considering hiring you, I actually had a lot of concerns. My biggest concerns were you and Dad together. I was like, “This is not going to go well.” Actually, I was more worried about Dad than you. I was like, “He’s going to be trouble.” The reason for that is that he’s really close with all of us.

I thought, “We’re now a company of a size that we can’t just be willy-nilly about who we have conversations with.” There are appropriate ways to do things. There is going to be someone who is supervising you. In this case, it’s Courtney, our chief marketing officer. What I was concerned about with you and Dad…

I could just imagine this because you’re single. You spend a lot of time over at Mom and Dad’s, more than I do. I could imagine that you would be having dinner over there on a Wednesday night or something, and you would cook up some idea, and y’all would get going on it because he loves to talk about ideas. He would just run with it and come back to me and tell me, “Marissa and I decided we’re doing this thing.”

Marissa: Well, we’re both such quick starts that it’s so easy for all of us (it goes for everybody) to just start talking about ideas. Then it’s like, “Alright, we’re ready to act on it.”

Megan: Right, and then we haven’t gone through the proper conversations to bring that idea… I guess I should say it this way. In no other scenario would our marketing director have that much access to our founder or to me as CEO.

Marissa: At that time, I was the social media manager, so even more so.

Megan: At that point, you were the social media manager, which meant you were over there even more because you were capturing videos at video shoots and doing things related to social media, so you had a lot of conversation and access. I know how he is and how he just wouldn’t even be thinking about it.

He would just talk to you because he’s so close to you, and it wouldn’t even occur to him that it would be a problem. I could just imagine myself kind of cleaning up the mess relationally with Courtney and you. Mostly what I was concerned about was Courtney and myself. “Okay, we’re leading this at an executive level, and we have to make sure that…”

This leads right into the second rule, which is don’t break the chain of command. “If there is a chain of command in place, it has to be real. It can’t be fake.” That was my real concern. Once we got that figured out, it was okay. I was going to ask you what you thought about those expectations, and then we’ll come back to the chain of command.

Marissa: Well, this kind of goes to both points. I remember that conversation like yesterday. I remember before we had signed the job offer, you said, “I want to have a conversation with you and Dad before.” I immediately was like, “Oh gosh. What is this going to be? I don’t want to feel stifled or like I can’t really be myself.” That was a big concern.

What it actually did was, like you said, align all of us and make me feel clear on what the expectations were so I felt like I could win. I knew exactly what was expected. I knew… Trust me. I’ve worked here for three years, I think, at this point. There have been a lot of times where Dad or I start going, and I go, “Whoa! Pump the brakes. We can’t do this. I need to go have a conversation with Courtney first,” or whatever the situation might be.

That has been a really helpful guideline for us. I feel like going in, I was really nervous, but getting clear on expectations on the front end made all of us… It took any guesswork out. It took any weirdness out. If somebody was crossing a line, it gave the other people permission to say, “Hey, this is actually crossing a line.”

Megan: Right, throw a flag.

Marissa: Me saying that to Dad or him saying that to me or you to me or however it was, which we had all agreed to.

Megan: Let’s move on to rule two, don’t break the chain of command. This isn’t going to apply to everybody because sometimes, when you’re hiring family members or there is a partnership or whatever, there is no chain of command. You and the family member are the chain. In our case, there is a person in between us. With you and Dad, there are two people in between you. There is Courtney, your boss, and then me. I think what that looks like is you really have to be intentional about how decisions get made, how you bring things up, and how you don’t do it. Talk about what that has been like for you practically.

Marissa: Well, first of all, I just want to say that I think this has actually been a really good buffer for you and me. I think this has actually reduced any friction that would have been potential otherwise because we do have that buffer. Courtney is kind of that neutral party, so to speak. It has really helped.

In positive situations where we have ideas or strategies that we’re trying to determine, being able to have her as the sounding board and also as the advocate as well… I think she so many times has acted for my advocate for certain things, which has been really helpful because I think it brings a lot of credibility or a little bit more authority to what otherwise I could see… I’m not saying you’ve ever done this, but I could see you dismiss it as, “That’s just my little sister.”

Megan: Sure.

Marissa: But when I bring an idea to Courtney and she agrees and she is kind of the one to present that or to back me up, so to speak, I think it helps me feel like I can win. And certainly, if there is ever any kind of challenge that we’re facing or anything, I feel like having her there is just that one more step. I don’t know. It feels like one more step that kind of brings it down, dials it down, helps shed light, rationale, onto this situation.

Megan: Yeah, and I think it’s important to say in this conversation on the chain of command that if you have a person between you and a family member who is supervising that person, it is very important that you have a conversation about expectations with them and build that into the chain of command, which I did with Courtney. I had a conversation with her and talked about her concerns. She had all of the concerns that I had.

I really had to have her trust that we would follow the chain of command, or I’m not sure she would have been willing to do it. Or it would have been a fake boss role. It has not been that. It has been absolutely legitimate in every way. Part of that has looked like Dad or I or you sometimes redirecting conversations back to Courtney. “Hey, that would be a great thing to talk about with Courtney,” or, “Maybe that’s an HR thing. You need to take that to HR.”

That has been a big part, I think, of supporting her role as the leader of your department and your direct supervisor. It has really enabled her to win, but it has also, like you’re saying, enabled you to win. I think that has been really good.

Marissa: Yeah, Megan. I’m curious because I don’t really know this side of the story. We’re talking a lot about putting our expectations for me down in writing and not breaking that chain of command. What was that conversation like with Courtney prior to hiring me? What were the actions you took with her to make sure that trust really was established and that she felt really confident about the decision to hire me?

Megan: I think this is a good takeaway for anybody listening in this situation. If you’re the business owner or CEO, it’s important that you’re self-aware enough to understand that the family dynamics are intimidating to other people. You need to not go into that lightly or assume people are just going to figure it out or not experience the power component to family members. For example, Marissa, if you wanted to… This wouldn’t last very long, I can assure you. If you wanted to throw your weight around as a family member, you could make Courtney’s life temporarily miserable…until I fired you.

Marissa: God forbid we ever have to deal with that.

Megan: I know. I’m just joking. You’ve never done that, but that’s possible, right? The reason I’m saying that is it’s just important to recognize. If you’re navigating this, this is potentially an issue for the people in your company, and you need to really deal with that head-on. Part of how I dealt with that intentionally is at the same time I was talking with you and Dad, actually in advance of that, I talked to Courtney. Courtney was very impressed with you and wanted to hire you, but she had some concerns about it that were totally legitimate.

Marissa: We should say I started in a contractor role. All of this that we’re talking about was at the point that you and Courtney had decided to bring me on as a full-time employee. There was a little bit of history already established with me contracting.

Megan: Yeah, that was helpful. That’s maybe a good takeaway as well. You can kind of test the waters a little bit without so much skin in the game, and maybe that can be a good way to do it. I really made an attempt to hear her concerns and validate them and commit myself to… It was really my job to make sure those concerns were never realized.

We put things in place like the expectations in writing, like the clear chain of command that would ensure that those things never became real concerns, that they would remain out there as potential but were not likely to happen. I think that was really important.

Also, if there has ever been anything that has come up where the chain of command… There have been one or two times when this has not gone well. I made sure that I apologized and fixed that for her. I went behind the scenes and cleaned it up because again, it’s my job. If I set the rules and then break them, it’s my job to clean it up because that damages trust.

I think trust is at the heart of this. What nobody would want in a position where they’re supervising a family member is to feel like they’re a placeholder and the real boss is the person underneath them. That’s just dishonest from a professional standpoint. That’s not what we wanted to happen. Courtney is absolutely the right person to lead our marketing department. We didn’t want there to be any confusion about who the boss was, and that’s Courtney. Anyway, I think that was how I tried to set her up for success. If we had her on, it would be interesting to see how well I did at that from her perspective. Hopefully I  did pretty well.

Marissa: Equally, she and I had some really frank conversations in the hiring process as well to make sure she and I were aligned on what those expectations were. It was kind of two-fold. You, me, and Dad all had to get aligned, and then we each individually had to get aligned with Courtney since she is who I would be reporting to.

Megan: Let’s talk about the third rule, which is keep good boundaries. I’m not really talking about this in a professional context because we have already gotten into this with sharing our expectations in writing and not breaking the chain of command, and so forth, but I’m really talking about outside of work, how do we think about boundaries so, frankly, it doesn’t alienate us from other family members? Marissa, talk about some of the things we do with regard to that.

Marissa: One of the things you and Dad had already established prior to me coming in, which was really helpful, was not talking about work outside of work. This is really hard.

Megan: It’s really hard.

Marissa: We are not perfect at this. We were all at the lake house this last weekend, and I don’t even remember what the conversation was, but we started talking about work. A lot of times, it’s usually one of our other sisters (if they’re around) who will call us out. They’ll throw the flag and say, “Guys, we’re not talking about work.” To me, this is the hardest thing because we relate about this. We’re excited about this. We’re passionate. We want to talk about work. If there is a challenge, we want to bounce it off of each other. We make sure that we’re not talking about work outside of work.

The other boundary that I’ve had to lay specifically with Dad (and Mom, for that matter) is if I’m talking about work, like anybody would talk to their parents about their job, I have to make it clear on the front end, “I need you to put your Dad hat on, not your boss hat.”

Megan: Yes.

Marissa: It is so easy. If I am just talking about some challenge that I’m dealing with at work… I’m not talking to him like he’s my founder and chairman of our company. I’m looking at him as my dad in this moment, and I’m just trying to work this out through talking about it and maybe hearing some of his wisdom as he would in any other position I’ve been in. I have to make that clear because he will go so quickly into boss mode. “We have to fix this,” or whatever. I’m like, “No, no, no. I’m well-equipped to do this. I’m here to just talk about it to my dad.”

Megan: I think this is a huge point. It’s funny that you bring up the hat thing because Joel and I talk about this a lot. I think we have done at least one podcast where we talked about how we navigate this as husband and wife. Joel is on our executive team but actually reports to me. We talk about, “Am I talking to my wife, or am I talking to my boss?” In this case, it’s, “Am I talking to my sister, or am I talking to the CEO of our company?”

If you think about it like hats, you can only wear one hat at a time. It’s really, really helpful because you have to take one hat off and put it on. That figurative act of trading hats helps you know what role you’re in and what expectations you have of the other person. I think that is so important because when those get confused, first of all, it can be problems for the business. Once or twice, I’ve gotten messages from Dad like, “Marissa said this and this, and we need to…” I’m like, “Whoa! What’s going on?” He’s actually very good about this. I has literally been once or twice.

I think on the flip side, if you really need support, and he’s trying to fix it, or vice versa… Maybe he’s feeling insecure about how some marketing campaign is going. He’s just telling you what’s going on in his job, and you’re insecure about it because you’re the marketing director, and you feel like you need to go change everything because you have your marketing director hat on instead of your daughter hat, then there is an opportunity for conflict there or disappointment or whatever. I think this point around the rule of keeping good boundaries is really critical.

Marissa: Yeah. I think the other thing too that is going to happen within family is there are going to be things that are shared that need to remain extremely confidential for one reason or another, whether it’s somebody is wearing the sister or daughter or dad hat or whatever the personal side of it is, and they say something they would have never said within their regular role, or there is some kind of exchange of information that typically would not happen within a normal professional relationship…

I think this goes back to the idea of trust. Courtney and I have even talked about this as well, confidentiality. It is so critical to make sure that everyone is clear that in those conversations… How I view it personally is any time I’m having a conversation with you, even if we’re standing in your kitchen just chatting about work or whatever, to me, that conversation is confidential. I’m not going to go off and tell my coworkers something you said or tell whoever at work about something Dad and I were talking about.

I think it’s natural from a personal standpoint to share all of these parts of your life. You can’t just separate the work out, so you’re going to talk about it. You’re going to share things. It’s important to make sure that both of you are clear about the confidentiality so that is never a question of, “Are they going off and sharing what I just said?”

Megan: I think that’s so important. I have to remind myself (and I take confidentiality so seriously) that there are all kinds of things I know that I can’t share with anybody. It’s just the nature of my work. Those may be things I could share sometimes with Dad, depending on what it is, but they are often HR-related or whatever, and I just can’t share those things with you. I can’t even share a lot of those things with Joel.

That’s a burden, but the only way the burden gets worse is if I inappropriately share it with a family member who works in the business in a way that would put that burden on them. I need, for example, my executives to trust that when they share something with me, that stays where they left it, and I’m observing the right kind of confidentiality. I take that so, so seriously.

The flip side of that is we know thing about each other personally that would not be appropriate to share in a professional context. You might have shared something with me about a date you went on or a relationship you’re in or whatever that if I just started talking to you about it in the kitchen while I’m making my lunch would be totally humiliating to you.

You don’t want everybody to know that, and I don’t have the right as the CEO of the company and your sister to just broadcast your personal business because I know it and I’m your sister. That carries way more weight because I’m the CEO than it does just being your sister.

Marissa: Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Megan: Okay, the last rule, and I think this goes back to something you said when we were opening up, is don’t stop nurturing your personal relationship. This is really big for you. You’re the most relational person I know. Marissa, as she said earlier, is an Enneagram Eight. Our family and her connections with us and our kids are so important to her. I think this is near and dear to your heart in particular.

Marissa: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is so critical. If you’re going to make the rest of it work, this has to be in place because without it, you don’t really have a foundation. You’re just coworkers at that point. To me, if this isn’t working or if this is damaged, the rest of it is going to completely come apart.

You’re exactly right. It’s very important to me. My family are my people. I think as an Enneagram Eight, it’s really normal for us to not have a huge group of people, but our people are our ride-or-dies. I totally see all of you that way. I think both my relationship with you and with Dad… I think we have done a really good job with this.

For instance, the other day, I was in the neighborhood and decided to stop by. You actually weren’t there that day, but I stopped by to see Joel and the kids and just take a minute to invest in them personally. With Mom and Dad getting their lake house last year, this has also really helped, I think, foster that personal relationship because we’re able to bond and go fishing and swimming and surfing and all of that at the lake, which just enriches all of our relationships together.

It’s no longer just, “We’re only connecting through work.” There is so much more to our relationships. Dad is really good about this with all of us daughters, making sure that he’s taking us out on dates individually and really pursuing that relationship with us. Like you said earlier, I frequently go to Mom and Dad’s for dinner or grab dinner with them to make sure we’re connecting outside of just work. To me, this is the glue. Without it, everything else comes apart.

Megan: Yeah, I think this is true. This shows up everywhere from my relationship with Joel… We’re going on date nights. We’re investing in our relationship with each other as husband and wife, not just in our professional relationship. That would be really easy to do because we spend a lot of time together at work. That’s an easy thing to default to talking about.

With Dad, I feel like he does such a great job. When I meet with him normally every Monday for lunch, he always asks me questions about what’s going on personally. We spend a lot of time together as a family just talking about personal stuff, and it’s not just a functional relationship that is a business partnership. I’m so grateful for that. That’s really important.

With you, like you said, it’s the same thing. Like you said, it’s the foundation. It’s the foundation of everything. We have to make sure we nurture this, otherwise people feel kind of used, and they end up feeling like there’s regret. They feel like, “Great. Awesome. We have this professional relationship, but we lost the personal connection that we had that was even more valuable.” I think that’s a great point.

It’s probably important to say before we close that, obviously, we are big fans of working with family. From our perspective, it has been a blessing. It has been a gift. We’re going to keep doing it. We love it.

Marissa: Yeah, totally.

Megan: However, Surgeon General’s warning: there are some cases where this might be a really bad idea, and you want to run (don’t walk) from this as an option. When I am usually talking with people about this, and they come to me and ask me for my opinion, I usually start by asking, “How is the relationship now?”

Marissa: That’s so good.

Megan: Going into business together or working for a family member is going to highlight whatever your relationship already is. If it’s great, it’s probably going to be better. If it is troubled in some way, if you have difficulty communicating, if you’re conflict-avoidant, if there is unresolved trauma, if there is a power struggle… These things are all going to come up, and the consequences are going to be so much greater in a professional context. Really run. Don’t put that pressure and that weight on a foundation that isn’t strong. I can’t say that strongly enough. It’s just not a good idea. What do you think about that, Marissa?

Marissa: I couldn’t agree more. I feel like working together just magnifies your relationship. Luckily, in our situation, we had a great relationship prior to working together, and it really magnified that and made it even better and gave us even more connection points, but it certainly can do the opposite. If you have any kind of cracks that are there…

To me, the biggest threats are the things lying under the surface that haven’t been addressed. That will come up when you’re working together. There will be a lot of scenarios where all of that passive‑aggressiveness starts showing up, and you get resentful of each other. That will come up if there is any of that under the surface.

Just like you need to get clear on your expectations, addressing any issues if you’re certain you need to go into business together, making sure you’re addressing those issues prior to just jumping in. The whole message here is you have to be intentional with working with family. It can’t just be all of a sudden showing up together and deciding that you’re going to do business together, and there is no thought behind it. You have to be incredibly intentional from the beginning to the middle and all the way to the end.

Megan: Absolutely. We probably should have included a bonus rule here about communication because good, healthy, clean, straightforward communication is another rule. If you do weird, funky, triangulated, passive aggressive communication, it’s not going to end well, folks.

Megan: It’s not going to work.

Megan: Okay, well we really believe that working with family can be a great thing if you follow these rules.

  1. Put your expectations in writing.
  2. Don’t break the chain of command.
  3. Keep good boundaries.
  4. Don’t stop nurturing the personal relationship.
  5. Practice healthy, clean communication.

I hope you guys have found this insightful and useful and maybe brings some clarity to the relationships in your lives and how they might be a good fit for a professional context or not. Either one is fine. It’s always good to know on the front end. Either way, it has been really fun to be with you. Marissa, thank you for joining us. This has been a blast to have you on the show today.

Marissa: Yeah, thanks for having me. Hopefully it is the first of many episodes.

Megan: Wink, wink.

Marissa: Bring me back.

Megan: That’s right. Will do. Guys, thanks for joining us today. Until next week, lead to win.